Craig Snee's Blog

GREAT, I posted the other day; The way taht scribes work does not seem to be correct to me. if I were to have a face frame left stile of 2" and wanted to add a 1" scribe the cabinet should not grow and or shrink. it should just add a dimension to the left stile width making it 3".

For you, this works, for others I know, if a product increases, they want to account for it in the size.  So maybe a toggle for which way to go?

A toggle for the scribe would be great.  We, too, would like the drawing and finished size to remain, with just the cut list having '+"scribe amount"" added appropriately to the part.

Well, in the "It is what it is" world, we draw what is there.  there are two ways to show one thing and cut another .  One is use a dummy part.  One that draws, then the actual part that is cut but does not draw.  Another way is to use a "Virtual Rout" that does not produce code and cuts of what you dont want seen.

As I'm reading this, I'm wondering what build and what drawing type (2d or 3d) you guys are using.  

In build 10, in 2D, most of the products appear to be drawing in the way your describing (which is what I prefer as well)  when the G!Show_Scribe=1.    However I've seen products that don't work like this such as the Product Starters.  I think the toggle you're refering to could be just another global variable.  

One thing that I've had particular trouble with is the Face Frame Metafiles that show up.  Alot of our face frame stiles are only 7/8" wide (because we "split" stiles of adjoining cabinets, ending up with 1.75" between doors) and these come in barely visible because of the scaling and placement of the text.  

The other thing that is a problem for me on these reports is getting custom Face frames to show all the parts correctly.  I noticed that I have better luck if I use a separate subassy for say, an added midrail, then trying to mess around with the Face Frame Subassy.  This gets the rail on the metafile at least, it just doesn't show the opening sizes (in build 10 at least).  Perhaps the Opening splitters in Build 11 do a better job of this, I haven't been able to give it a test run yet.  

I would think that scribes to face frames would work like a scribe works on the back of a cabinet. That does not add to hte finished size of the cabinet as far as the report (product) goes. If you have someone building something from "word list" they will build an assembly that is actually bigger (by the scribe amount) than the report states. At least as far as I am concerned This would be a good thing. I view a scribe as an amount of material that if the real world condition is not exactly plumb and level will allow the product to be scribed to that condition, and if the real word conditition is exactly plumb and level that amount will be removed totaly.

I must be missing something.    I fully agree with you design, that's what I need as well.  and that's the way most of my library works.  for instance, i just took a 2 door 1 false front sink base, which is 36" and added a 1/4" right scribe and the FF is now 36.25" wide.  

What I'd love to see, which i think you touched on is it actually showing the scribe like an FE, that is a scribe route.  This way, in our plan sections shop guys can visually see that there is a scribe there.  I've thought about how to accomplish this on my own, and I'm wondering if Right Stile and Left Stile are common parts that one could simply add a machined route to and rebuild the library?  any ideas on this?

OK folks, we will address this when we get back from the show, OK?  We hear you.

I do all my drawing in 3D and always have since I started with MV, so I am not sure how MV creates the plan view to say if that would work. It sounds like it should. What I have been doing is going into the face frame subassembly and adding to the width of the stile or whichever parts that I need to grow. One problem that I come across is that I spend alot of time reverse engineering the formulas, so it's safe to add to actual part dimension. the problem is that only fixes the part not the face frame report and maybe something else but you won't know until it comes back and bites you. It would be great if the workbook designer had data audit tools like Excel. MV should look at  the library  and check that left and right scribes add to - Stiles, Base Assembly, Crown, and Base molding. Back Scribes should add to Fin End Panel Back Stile Only, Base assembly,Crown and Base Molding. Top Scribes should add to the Top Rail and the Top of the Stiles and the top rail and stiles of finished end panels . Bottom scribes should add to the Base assembly or the bottom of the Side panel if you use a notched toe.I think for that to work the scribe amount needs to be in the Product Prompts (L!) and passed to the Subassembly Parts that require it

I concur with everything Design just said.  Now, since craig is hinted that we've beaten this subject to death, what else?

End panel configuration would be the next thing on my list.

I would like to be able to compensate for crown,base molding, adjacent cabinets (upper and lowers), adjacent backsplash. 2,3,4,5,6 panel configurations.The ability to adjust rail widths and heights.

I too have found this troublesome.  We mainly use a simple door style (MV 409).  

I was going to wait for Fred to improve these, but as far as i know he was pulled off for more pressing issues so I modified it to my needs myself.  I was suprised that I only had to spend three hours on it to come up with what i needed.  

My need was for the ability to have up to four panels (heightwise) in a tall FE, with the ability to size them however i wanted.  this was not very difficult to accomplish using a custom calculator.  I'm looking forward to seeing the updated version from MV when it's done, but for now, mine works just fine.  Your situation sounds like you might need more than I did.  

What do you mean by compensate for all the mouldings and backsplash?  like a scribe?  just wondering.  

When ever we use crown or base molding the end panel goes behind them. This would allow something to attach to as well as avoid a seam on seam conditition. so say that your bottom rail was to be 2.5" visable and you wanted to have a 1" overlap at the base. Your bottom rail would need to be 3.5" and the endpanel would be placed 1" lower. The same condition would be true for the crown. As far as the backsplash goes that would allow you to increase the back stile width and actually move the stile towards the front of the cabinet.(thats how they work now actually)

I use 409 the most also. And I have in the past modified panels for different configureations but they are not as well done as the ones that Lenny and Fred have made, and they have different promt names and globals and then don't work with the next library.

I have another thing that has given me some grief.  The way MV figures mid stiles in Base cabinets.  

If we have a two drawer two door base, the Midstile will go from the bottom rail to the top rail, and there will be two midrails.  It seems MV has no Option for this.  i have created a new subassembly to handle these cabinets, but it was a pain with all the FF metafile tokens, and I don't want to do it again for build 12, etc.  perhaps there should be a global variable asking how you handle your midstiles?  

I just thought of another one also.  I'd really like it if MV had an option to make a fixed shelf that came up to the back of the FF, and added the Midrail to the FF of the product as the Shelf Edge.  This ones really important to me, because it happens alot.  I need this to show up on the FF report metafiles correctly so they get built correctly.  

I actually use that configuration, my rails go through and the stiles are the pieces. I almost never use a mid stile below a drawer rail. I would think a starter cabinet would do that for you. Are the times thatyou want this on wide cabinets or is it a design thing that all the stiles are full length?

I also noticed when rollouts are used they seem to index from the front of the cabinet, so if you change the depth of the rollout it stays forward in the cabinet. I would like to be able to change the depth and maintain a standard gap off the back.

would it be possible to make the molding selection work something like this. when you want to pick a molding the program would go to a windows like window with multiple thumb nails to view at once, you could pick the one you want and that would populate the field in the globals. Also all moldings should be placed from the cabinet side of the molding (top of base,Bottom of Crown,window side of casing)

I've got an easy suggestion as i already have a solution.  I need to be able to change FE style per side of cabinet, not per cabinet.  This is for say a Tall that has bases and walls on one side.  that side would be a slab construction while the other could be a door panel.  I've done this one one product via adding two new checkbox prompts,  "FE Slab Right Override" and FE slab left override", then adding a simple IF statement to the name formula for that side in front of the existing statement in the subassy name cell.  this is the formula :

=IF(Slab_FE_Left=1,"FE Upper Left Slab",IF(OR(FE_Panel_Library="MV Legacy Door System",FE_Panel_Library="MV Slab"),"FE Upper Left Slab",IF(FE_Panel_Library="MV MDF Door System","FE Upper Left MDF","FE Upper Left Solid Wood")))

I would like this put into build 12 if possible

I agree with the ability to have different types of applied end panels. I use it at a stove for both wall cabinets and bases. I also use something I call an appliance end panel, this is just a short applied piece at an appliance like a dishwasher, it only needs to be 4"-5" wide so when the door is open you don't see a void and you have something to attach the appliance to (my face frame are flush to the inside of the cabinet). Where are you adding the if statement?

The if statement is applied to the front of the existing formula that is in the name cell of that subassy, on the subassy tab, at the product level.  (hope that makes sense).  

I too need something like what you describe for an appliance EP.  

is anyone using the latest build 13 yet?  any comments?  

Working with build 13 I've discovered a few issues.

I would like to see a hardware addition of a 5/8 overlay hinge, Blum preferably at a type 38N. The hinge overlay drives the door overlay and thus the buyout reports.

The 1 door diagonal corner upper is missing the Door_Style option in the Door Tab when a generic door is selected.

The 1 door diagonal corner base with false front has selection on the shelf tab that should be on the door tab and visa versa.

I'd also like to control the amount the face frame projects above the tall cabinets. This option exists in the upper cabs but not the talls. That way I can make a box with a full frame that slides into a hallway pocket closet. My work around was to move the top down and trim the end panels and back.

So far, this is a fantastic library. I look forward to future revisions with more features.

Thanks

Russ

I agree with that for tall cabinets. I would also like to be able to remove the bottom face frame so the door would go to the bottom of the face frame stile.